Author Topic: Discussion Engine Oil Brand  (Read 6821 times)

Offline tchekchuan

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Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« on: December 22, 2008, 03:47:04 PM »
Hi all,

Carrefour and Giant selling those engine oil... Carlube brand only for 30 dollars. it is fully synthetic. is it good?

Offline Ying

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2008, 05:08:58 PM »
search in the forum, there are many posting on this topic liao.

The $30 only Carlube Triple-R 5W40 is Full synthetic and it is value for money.

Check the Date please, I saw two version of Carlube Triple-R 5W40 on sale at the same time in AMK hub before, one is 2007 production and another is Sep 2008 production. Both same colour but different label design, the 2008 version has the word "Fully Synthetic", the 2007 batch only "Synthetic"
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 05:15:32 PM by Ying »

iewoug

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 05:11:45 PM »
An engine oil is basically base oil blended with additives.

While simple, the makeup/quality of these two ingredients will determine the performance/quality of the engine oil in question.

Therefore, performance/quality is dependent on:

1. Basestock used (synthetic, mineral)
2. Additives used

1. Basestock
The kind of basestock used will determine whether the EO is synthetic or mineral, i.e. if synthetic basestock is used then the EO will be fully-synth. However do note that there are different "grades" of synthetic basestocks, for e.g. PAO (polyalpholefins) and Group III basestocks. PAO is of better quality since it is totally not derived from crude oil (man-made in labs) but costs much more to produce than Grp III basestocks.

There are not many brands of EOs on the market that uses PAO as the basestock due to the higher cost of production, and the general public's ignorance on the difference between PAO and Grp III synthetic EOs. Most EOs on the market (including those produced by oil majors) currently are Grp III-based but selling at PAO prices.

Without naming any brand for impartiality's sake, you might want to check with your mechanic which brands are PAO and which are Grp III based. Usually the price difference wouldn't differ by a lot. To be doubly-sure you can go check out the Product Data Sheet (PDS) from the manufacturer's website.

2. Additives
Additives are simply chemicals that are added to the basestock to impart or enhance certain qualities of the EO, for e.g. detergency effect, emulsifying effect etc. Do note that there is no one additive that can do everything, i.e. be the best in everything because the effects are generally opposing each other. For e.g. adding too much additives that increase the performance of one property will weaken another. Henceforth the key here is to find one that has a balanced additive pack that is formulated for the application of the EO.

How come some fully-synth are so cheap:
"Standard" additive packs can be easily purchased from additive manufacters. Same goes for basestock. So what happens is that anyone with enough capital can simply register and set up a company that purchases the basestock and standard additive packs, blend them and sell to the consumers (which is what a lot of those smaller EO brands are). In short, to use electronics sector as an analogy, they are not the OEM manufacturer but are simply "assemblers", buying generic parts and assembling them together, package it to their brand and market it to the end user.

And that is why you see a huge price variance between so many brands of Engine Oils.

Industry Standards:
A little fact that few people know of is that the SAE/API specifications for EOs is on a "self-declaration" basis. What that means is that the SAE/API do not require manufacturers to send in batch samples for testing to validate whatever SAE/API specs they claim their products to possess. Therefore, there exists the risk of misinformation. Logics goes that it is generally safer to go for a reputable brand since they got the company reputation to protect.

However, certain OEM specs like for EOs specified for use with Mercedes engines (for e.g. MBxxx), or Volvo engines (for e.g. VW502.00 etc) requires the manufacturer to send in samples for certification. This process requires the manufacturer to sometimes invest heavily in R&D with the engine manufacturer to produce a compatible oil, and the tests needed to certify the EOs is costly. Henceforth usually only reputable brands have such OEM claims.

Hence, why some brands of EOs are more exp is because they use better quality ingredients (PAO basestock, specially formulated additive packs) and invest in R&D to come up with the special formulation, and also to subject the product to testing and certification which "generic" manufacturers don't.

Conclusion:
Quality/Performance of an EO is dependent on:
1. Quality of the basestock used (PAO vs Grp III for synth, or mineral)
2. Kind of additives used (there is no industry standards for this, but general rule of thumb is better EOs use specially formulated additive packs instead of generic additive packs, but of course are much more exp)

NOTE: I've seen and heard many people commenting on the suitability/compatibility/performance of an EO simply based on its viscosity. For e.g common argument goes something like "0W40 is too thick, 0W30 is better cos its thinner etc". Pls note that this is not the sole/main determinant in EO performance. The other factors listed above are just as, if not more important in determining the EO performance.



iewoug

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 05:21:34 PM »
To further add on one more point:

The API/SAE specs are "baseline" specs, i.e. they are MINIMUM requirements. What this means is that for e.g. for any product rated SM-grade (API) means that they meet certain criteria. But it does't specify how much they EXCEED the API specs.

For ease of understanding, the API/SAE spec is something like saying the latio and GTR are both specified to be able to travel above at least 100km/hr. However it doesn't say anything abt the top speed of these two vehicles.

What I'm trying to say here is, you can have two SM-grade EOs, one costing $30 and another $100, and they all look the same to you since both are SM and 0W40. But the $100 one could possibly exceed the SM/0W40 requirements by a lot while the $30 one might just barely meet the requirements.

If anyone is really interested in comparing, they should look at the PDS of the products for an apple-to-apple comparison.

Hope this helps.

Offline Ying

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 05:26:07 PM »
http://www.carlube.co.uk/index.cfm?product=73
This website shows the old 2007 label.

like that Carlube "Meets the requirements of VW502.00, 505.00, MB229.3, Porsche and BMW. " good enough? They invest some much in R&D but why still so cheap?

iewoug

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 05:33:08 PM »
one possible explaination is that the basestock + additive pack used alr meets all those specs..so when they "assemble" together such a product..it is thus meeting all these specs.

with time, the generic ingredients can usually "catch up" and meet the OEM specs as these OEM specs become more prevalent. however for the latest OEM spec certification only those who invest in R&D will have. For e.g. VW has a relatively new spec VW504.00. If I'm not wrong only certain oil major brands' products carry this certification.

but then again, remember that like I said above, all these specs are "baseline" specs, meaning alot of products can meet a certain spec but it doesn't say which one is better than the other in terms of actual performance, largely because these industry standards do not test for the various properties of the EOs, for e.g. how well it cleans the engine, how well it dissipates heat etc. What separates one brand from another is thus the kind of additives used. Also, if I'm not wrong they are most likely using group III basestock.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 05:43:52 PM by iewoug »

Offline kspchew

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 09:12:19 PM »
Wow, that's very informative. :thumbsup:

How about hydro crack oil? One of the workshop guys mentioned that its even better than synthetic oil.
True ? :confused1:

iewoug

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 09:39:51 PM »
Hydrocracking is a process used upstream in oil refining.

Basestock derived from hydrocracking are termed Group II basestocks and are mostly mineral grades.

Group III basestocks are usually processed from a process called isohydromerization.

PAO is considered Group IV.

In a nutshell Grp IV > Grp III > Grp II.

The higher grouped basestock has a higher viscosity index than a lower grouped basestock.

A higher viscosity index enables the lube to retain its viscosity under harsh operating temperatures without "thinning out" and losing its lubricating properties.

Going by the above a Grp IV (PAO) lube will be able last much longer and perform under harsher condition than a Grp III lube, and thereafter.

This is also the reason why the oil drain interval (ODI) for a synthetic lube (Grp III or IV) is much longer than a mineral (Grp I or II) lube.

To build on my above posts, a Grp III lube already meets all SAE/API requirements to be classified as a fully-synth EO. However an Grp IV lube's performance will far exceed that of a Grp III, but yet both will be bearing the same SAE/API classification.

Factor in the variance in lubricant properties due to differences in additive formulation, two fully-synth EOs can have wildly different performance characteristics.

Sad fact is that a lot of consumers are not savvy about EOs and so-called "experts" usually have superficial knowledge only or have a vested interest in promoting certain brands. This has led to a proliferation of various "mickey mouse" brands and certain niche "performance" brands appearing in the market.

Think about it, workshops earn a margin from the EOs they use for servicing your cars. Whichever suppliers' products gives them the best margin or benefits-in-kind will be the ones they will be telling you is best for your car. It is a business afterall.

It is just like going to the doctor's. Patients usually don't question the doctor on the efficacy of the medicine being prescribed. Those who do do not have enough knowledge to self-medicate.

Hope this clarifies.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 09:57:12 PM by iewoug »

iewoug

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2008, 10:09:16 PM »
Another reason why "carlube" branded lubes can be so cheap:

- They are only sold in retail channel (hypermarts)
Whichever company is importing in the product has much lower overheads than other major brands since they probably don't have a big sales force to maintain, do not need to offer sponsorships etc to outside workshops, do not have to do marketing/branding etc, no need to do R&D etc.

Just buy base oil and standard additive pack, blend, package and sell direct to retailers at dirt cheap prices.

Hypermarts love them since they are "loss leaders" and attract shoppers to their stores, who in turn end up purchasing other higher margin products which make up for the thin margin they make on the lubricant.

For all motorists who are involved enough to read up on EOs and enquire about EOs online etc, I would urge you not to penny-pinch. If you want a good quality lube, you will need to pay for the quality. Do not expect to pay the price of a Cherry QQ and expect the performance of a Aston Martin, even though both are cars, have four wheels, etc.

Hope noone is mistaken here, I've no vested interest here and am not advocating any particular brand or dismissing any particular brand either.

Just sharing my knowledge on this topic, leaving it to yourself to discern which brand/products are the quality ones.

Offline kspchew

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2008, 08:39:50 AM »
Thanks again for the detail clarification.  :thumbsup:

Oh man, this mechanics (whom recommend hydro crack EO)really know nuts about EO.
I wonder how they are still able to market their hydrocrack EO as fully synthetic, (L1Qu1 Mo1y) T0pte* 4100.

They had claimed that this is a long life EO and replacment interval is 20k km :scared:

Guess, I will stick to Carlube and have EO change at 5K Km

Cheers!

iewoug

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2008, 10:14:09 AM »
Glad I'm able to help.

Just curious, why change oil at 5K?

A fully-synth oil is at least able to last 8K km or longer (subject to quality of basestock, additives, driving conditions and styles)

Do note that with every oil change you incur direct costs (labor, etc) and opportunity costs (vechicle downtime, etc).

Lastly, I would advocate using reputable brands/products from reputable sources/workshops.

Reason being that should your engine fail (sludge buildup etc) due to the EO used, a reputable brand/product or sources might at least give you better recourse options.

Nothing against Carlube, just for consumer education's sake.

Offline tao

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2008, 12:33:52 PM »
iewoug, thanks for your detailed and thoughtful sharing, you are incredibly knowledgeable about EOs.  :thumbsup:

Offline Ying

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2008, 12:41:58 PM »
Iewong,
 Thanks for the detail info. My driving pattern is daily very short and many start stop route + weekend twice a month KL/Melaka trip. Over the time, base on the total carbon, acid level in EO, efficientcy of additive over longer interval, ability to lube the engine and assumed same total cost (while carlube is on sale 5L for $30).

which is better for me :confused1:
1) PAO based very good EO change at 10K (6 month) interval OR
2) carlube EO change at 5~6K (3 month) interval.

Don't think Carlube can tahan till 10K for my case.

 


Offline kspchew

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2008, 12:53:51 PM »
Glad I'm able to help.

Just curious, why change oil at 5K?

A fully-synth oil is at least able to last 8K km or longer (subject to quality of basestock, additives, driving conditions and styles)

Do note that with every oil change you incur direct costs (labor, etc) and opportunity costs (vechicle downtime, etc).

Lastly, I would advocate using reputable brands/products from reputable sources/workshops.

Reason being that should your engine fail (sludge buildup etc) due to the EO used, a reputable brand/product or sources might at least give you better recourse options.

Nothing against Carlube, just for consumer education's sake.

Perphaps, I should change EO at 8k km. Reason of changing at 5k km initially, is that my latio run on CNG.
CNG runs at a hotter temp than petrol, hence I thought oil might disintegrate faster at higher temperature.

Thanks again for the detail clarification. :thumbsup:

Offline tchekchuan

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2008, 12:59:30 PM »
Perphaps, I should change EO at 8k km. Reason of changing at 5k km initially, is that my latio run on CNG.
CNG runs at a hotter temp than petrol, hence I thought oil might disintegrate faster at higher temperature.

Thanks again for the detail clarification. :thumbsup:
Wow, kspchew, ur latio running on CNG. Latio already considered fuel efficient yet still install tank behind your boot?
but use CNG car "bohua" leh, the gas more expensive than petrol.

Offline kspchew

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Re: Discussion Engine Oil Brand
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2008, 04:11:08 PM »
Not really. I am staying only 5km from the CNG station and 1kg of CNG can take me approx. 20-21km.
1 kg of CNG cost $1.12 so per km, its only 5.3cents as compared to 95 Octane @ 1.4 after discount. So still save about 5cents per km.

Unless you stay very near to the CNG station, forget about converting.